The Grapplers Perspective
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The Grapplers Perspective
#85 - Gianni Grippo - UFC BJJ Reality Show Was Mostly Staged, We Stayed In Hotels
Grippo joins us to discuss his opponent change for Who's Number One, his experience competing in Kazakhstan, and his journey on the UFC BJJ reality show.
• Sharing the recent change from facing Owen Jones to Max Hansen at Who's Number One
• Breaking down why he felt confident against Owen's leg entanglement game
• Reflecting on the surprising quality and camaraderie at the AIGA tournament in Kazakhstan
• Describing a tough loss via leg lock that served as a valuable learning experience
• Revealing behind-the-scenes details about the UFC BJJ reality show, including competitors staying in hotels rather than the house shown on camera
• Discussing the innovative UFC octoball and why its no-reset format improves jiu-jitsu as a spectator sport
• Explaining his transition from obsessive drilling to ecological dynamics training with Keevan
• Reflecting on why adaptability and openness to new approaches has sustained his career
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gianni grippel, welcome to the podcast. How are you?
Speaker 2:good, good. Thank you guys for having me.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it no, it's a pleasure, man. It's good to catch up. We've obviously been trying to get this in for a couple of weeks, so I appreciate you being flexible, but we uh got there in the end. So it's good to meet you and it's it's quite good timing because obviously we've got who's number one, which is right around the corner for you. You're fighting our local boy, owen Jones. He's not now.
Speaker 3:What have I missed him? You've been away, mate. You've been away. He's been on holiday. He's missed it. What's happened? He's got visa problems, apparently. Oh what, yeah, he's got visa problems. So have you just announced a different, a different fight? You're still fighting on that card, and yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, so it was supposed to be Owen up until last. Uh, what day was it? Maybe last Thursday or Wednesday, I think it was last Wednesday. Uh, they changed it up. Um, I got a message from Ricardo, who runs the matchmaking and who's number one, and he's like man Owen's having issues getting into the country or whatever it may be, and he can't make it. He didn't really tell me visa issues so I can't say for sure, but I'm assuming it might be something like that. So, yeah, he couldn't make it. And the next day, thankfully, we were able to get a replacement with Max Hansen.
Speaker 3:Oh, nice yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm excited about that. It sucks because I think Owen was kind of like a spicy matchup that a lot of people wanted to see. You know we had a little bit of history talking, nothing terrible but you know we both really wanted that match. Max Hansen's always been kind of someone on the radar as well, but not quite as much so. So it was very disappointing initially but I had about like 12 hours of maybe being disappointed, maybe a little bit let down, and then, as soon as you know the max fight came upon us, I was like all right, let's refocus and kind of stop feeling bad about it and just focused on what I have in front of me now yeah, man, yeah, I've been away in europe so I've been off of social, so I got back just a couple of days ago.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I didn't know.
Speaker 2:Good for you. It's good to be off of socials for a while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good for the soul, for sure. Yeah, but that's obviously. The match is off with Owen, but it's very likely that that will happen again at some point in the future.
Speaker 2:I mean just talk us through, I guess, like how that did come about and and sort of how you were feeling about that as a potential matchup your style versus his style and then we'll come on to maybe chat about Max as well. Yeah, so it's funny how it kind of turned out, because I was in Kazakhstan recently for for and that was an awesome event. That might have been one of my favorite jiu-jitsu experiences ever. Uh, just the whole team event, um, the, the way the tournament was set up, just everything about it, the camaraderie with your teammates you never really get. It's a very individual sport but a format like that really makes it feel like a team. So that was a really cool experience.
Speaker 2:But I remember we're all out there me, deandre Corbett, devante Johnson, all these guys. We go through this long travel. We're all out there me, deandre corbett, davante johnson and all these guys. You know we go through this long travel. You know we're training out there. We're kind of jet lagged, the trip is kind of burning you out a little bit, and I remember we were all saying like, oh, when we get back we're just going to kind of take like a you know, quote, unquote vacation. Of course we're never like really taking off time from training.
Speaker 2:But like I was like I just want to quote unquote like chill train, like just kind of train for fun, you know, not have to take anything too seriously, because it's been kind of like one thing right after another so far this year, uh. But then while I was out there, actually before my first match, uh, ricardo messaged me. He's like oh, do you want to match with owen at uh on july 25th? And of course I said yes, you know I'm not going to say no to an opportunity like that. Um, so I was like, well, there goes my vacation, you know there goes my downtime, you know.
Speaker 2:So I guess I'm going to get that after this match, which is all right. Maybe, who knows, maybe something else will pop up too, and you know, the work never ends. But uh, yeah, well, literally while I was like um, getting ready for my first match, I was messaging Ricardo at the same time, negotiating prices and all this stuff and figuring out all the logistics and stuff like that while getting ready to compete. So yeah, that's how it kind of came about while out in Kazakhstan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It was definitely exciting.
Speaker 2:As much as I was a little burnt after the Kazakhstan trip, I definitely got fired up as soon as I got home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's sick. And what about Owen? Specifically excited you about taking that match.
Speaker 2:Because he's a young top prospect. Of course he's been doing well and not many people have seen him lose. I don't think he really competes all too often. I think he's competed at c trials and who's number one a couple polaris matches, but he hasn't really had a chance to uh. He hasn't had many setbacks from what I could tell. I think pato is the only one that's really beaten him over the last couple years.
Speaker 2:Uh last year or two or anything, but deep in my heart, I'm like man. I know I can not only beat this guy, but I know I can submit them. I believe our styles work very well for how for me, you know, to be honest. So it was. I was very excited about it because I'm like man. I feel like I really get a good chance to, to to another opportunity for me to prove myself against a high level opponent, another opportunity for me to prove myself against a high-level opponent and someone who I think a lot of people look at highly and as they should. But I really do feel like the matchup was very favorable for us. So, yeah, that's the reason why he ducked. I'm kidding. It was just a matchup that we really liked and I feel like we had a really good chance of exploiting his game. But I'm sure, like like we said, it'll happen at some point. Hey, he's a ninja.
Speaker 3:He is a ninja yeah he is good man.
Speaker 1:And what do you? What do you kind of see like what? What gives you that confidence? Is it like what? What do you see like your game versus his game? Where? Where are the kind of gaps and where do you kind of see it potentially going? And and where do you see you getting that submission potentially?
Speaker 2:man. So I feel like he scrambles and moves well and I've never been one to be a big you know a big scrambler myself, but I think for my weight class I've always been very good at slowing guys down, bringing them more to my speed and being able to kind of shut down their game. Um, obviously he's very good with leg entanglements and looking for leg locks and I've like over the last couple of years, I've pretty much made a career at being able to take advantage of those leg entanglements and countering and looking to turn those into back takes and head and arm submissions myself, you know. So I just had really good confidence that I was going to be able to do that and also I like I learned a lot from this Kazakhstan trip training with guys like DeAndre Corbet, because he was so good at shutting down the legs versus Pato.
Speaker 2:I picked up a lot of things from him where not only being good at fighting from within the leg entanglements, but he also kind of opened my eyes to finding openings by completely negating your opponent's leg entanglements, and that's something we've been focusing on a lot over the last couple of weeks and it also still helps for this Max Hansen match, because it's very much. Obviously they do different things, but they're both kind of looking to achieve the same thing. They're both looking to attack legs for the most part, you know. So it works for this match as well. But working with him and then also the game that I've already had for so long, I felt like I felt very comfortable going into the match.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, that's cool. So, yeah, hopefully we'll get to see that play out at some point and you feel like the match with Max then will likely go a similar way, you think?
Speaker 2:I believe so it could you know. Honestly, I don't know If he wants to come up on top and he's passing. That's fine by me as well. If we're there, I think that's great. But I do see situations in where I'm on top passing and I really do believe, based on what I've seen in his matches, he's looking to get both feet to the inside.
Speaker 2:So I feel like I've been working a lot on avoiding that and the way he plays guard, kind of like a knee shield um, I feel like I can exploit that as well just kind of very heavy with my hips and trying to, like you know, start fully passing from there, getting into leg weaves, stuff like that, and I'm sure it won't be easy.
Speaker 2:Uh, I'm sure it'll take me a few attempts, but hey, we got a 15 minute match to work with and I'm I'm confident in my ability to be able to cook guys the longer a match goes. I really do believe that's better for me. I do remember when I fought at one earlier this year against Gabriel Souza it was a 10-minute match and he got the decision and I remember feeling like man, I wish I had those extra five minutes because I could feel him starting to tire out, and I felt like my energy was just increasing as the match went on. So I'm looking forward to that extra five minutes to work with. You know, unless we don't need it, of course, that would be great too, but if we do need it, I do find that to be in my favor a lot of the times.
Speaker 1:Yeah man, yeah cool, well, good luck with the match, and obviously when this goes out it yeah cool, well, good luck with the match, and obviously when this goes out, it would have been said and done so hopefully people are watching this back going.
Speaker 2:yeah, he said it, he called it. I want to be called back for calling my shot exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mate, cool. And let's chat about Aiga real quick as well, because obviously we mentioned it a couple of times. You loved it, didn't you? Yeah, I could, because obviously it was streamed free, which is amazing. But I've said this to a couple of people and I think I've heard it said as well, but it feels like it was really poorly advertised because it almost went completely over my head and when I started watching I couldn't believe the amount of quality that competitors and teams that were in there it's like everyone was in there, wasn't it? Yeah, pretty much Take the kind of like the quintet style of teams out of like cji and it was. It was almost on par with what you know from a, from a competitor level, what you'd expect to see in the event coming up in you know in a month's time. So it was awesome. So, yeah, tell us a little bit about the event. Um, obviously, the, the matches and the whole experience yeah, you know it's funny.
Speaker 2:To be honest, I like really didn't want to go yeah, it doesn't sound appealing I was.
Speaker 2:I was afraid of anything that ends in stan, you know wise, wise man, yeah I remember, uh, to be honest, like I'm sure we'll talk about it as well like we had the ufc show going on and I remember the finale of the ufc show was gonna be on the same weekend as Aiga. So I was thinking like when I was there on the show, I'm like, man, get to the final and you don't have to go to Kazakhstan. And all I remember was when I, when I lost on the show, I was like, fuck, now I got to go to Kazakhstan. It was like my, it was like my punishment, at least at the time. It was like my, it was like my punishment, at least at the time. Uh, but to be honest, I really felt like it turned out to be a blessing because, uh, yeah, the honestly like I got. I guess I got used to the travel after Thailand, but the travel really wasn't that bad. I guess the jet lag once I got there and trying to uh adjust to the time was difficult, but overall, like I had a great experience.
Speaker 2:Uh, everyone that was on our team, the Alley-Owned team uh, they're all really cool. There were no egos in the room, there were no clicks, even with a big team and a lot of people. You know, everyone stuck together. Whether they had been there, uh, in multiple events before, or you were like a first timer, like I was, and like Devante was and DeAndre was, everyone was really cool with one another. So there was a really good vibe from the get-go.
Speaker 2:Some people came in late and they just kind of they just kind of merged right into the team seamlessly. Yeah, just everything on the outside of the competition and inside was a really cool experience, even if, you know, we were really like out in the woods. We were really out there like, and at first I'm like this is kind of weird, but I allowed myself to kind of embrace the experience and be like how often am I going to be able to do stuff like this? Um, and I kind of just took it for what it is and, uh, I really, really I'm glad that I gave myself the opportunity to really appreciate it, um, and I'm glad I got the opportunity to do it. So at the end I think it had worked out really well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it looked like an amazing event and very, very well put together as well. I mean, am I right in thinking? Were there, like previous events that were like qualifiers for that, or how did it work? Because I feel like I've seen matches previously but this felt like a big finale. But again, forgive my ignorance because I almost or like, how did it work? Because I feel like I've seen I've seen matches previously where this felt like a big finale. But again, forgive my ignorance because I almost missed the thing entirely.
Speaker 2:I almost don't know either. I guess there was, there are qualifiers for it. So that's why I was surprised that I got invited onto a team to begin with, because I'm like I didn't do anything. I feel like I kind of cheated, you know, I skipped the line or whatever you want to call it, and I just kind of got to go on to the main show, which was cool. I appreciate it. I wasn't going to say no, but I guess there were like, excuse me, I guess there were different qualifiers and apparently the Allianz team just beat up this poor Italian team that had a lot of blue and purple belts on it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what I watched. I watched that that had Owen Jones on it, didn't it? That team, not the Italian team? I think he was on it, and so was Declan Moody. Maybe, I don't know, a few others were on it, I think.
Speaker 2:Joseph Chen was on it as well, I believe A couple other guys. So, yeah, I thought I was going to be on their team, and then I was probably at least Owen's replacement or something like that. I'm not sure exactly what happened or why some of the guys weren't on it. So when I saw the lineup that we had, I was expecting a whole different crew of people, but it was still a great group regardless, so there were no complaints.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then talk us through your matches and how you feel they went.
Speaker 2:Looking back and reflecting now yeah, so my first match felt really really good. It's funny, I'm not used to competing as light as I was. That weekend I got down to 65 kilos, which is fairly normal for like ABCC trials weight. That's even a little bit lighter, you know, a whole kilo lighter, and then I think that day of the weigh-ins I was almost like 64 kilos. I was really light, um, but what was what's great about going down a weight class is that sometimes you come across guys in that weight class that are actually at that weight. So I think my my first match was like against a rooster, light featherweight guy who was very good in the gi. He beat guys like Taliesin, soares and other guys before, so the kid knew how to win. But I was like, ooh, a small guy, yeah, let's do this. And I'm sure the kid was tough, but I was able to ankle lock him pretty fast and that was kind of like a good warm-up for the weekend and our team just killed it in the first round. I think we won all six or seven matches, um, so that was. That was cool, uh, day two.
Speaker 2:Day two had its ups and downs. You know we were facing the williams team, which was led by, uh, giancarlo bodoni and dante leonardo. They were kind of like the managers of the team. Um, I ended up having a match with dominic mejia and man I I will. This is one that I'll live with because it really bothered me because I ended up having a match with Dominic Mejia and man I will. This is one that I'll live with because it really bothered me Because I felt really good In the first round.
Speaker 2:I felt like I was controlling the pace. I was I kind of had him In spots that I wanted to be in. So, like going into the second, third round, I'm like, okay, I fucking got this shit. I feel like I had it locked down. And just One transition, just one moment, and he ended up V-barring me and I don't think I've never been leg locked at Black Belt. That was like a first time for me. I haven't been leg locked since I think I was like maybe a Purple Belt like 15, 16 years ago, something crazy like that. Wow, yeah, I mean, I've been leg locked plenty of times in training.
Speaker 2:I'm not claiming but uh, but competition wise, it was very upsetting because that's always something that I've been very good at at avoiding and something that I I consider a strength, um, but what I will say about that is it definitely opened my eyes. Uh, make sure that I respect them. You know, I think sometimes I can get so comfortable with being like, oh, I defend legs so well, no one can catch me. You can kind of get a little cocky about it.
Speaker 2:And going into the Owen match and now the Max Hansen match, it may have been the best thing that ever happened to me, because it forces me to respect them again and instead of just taking it for granted like, oh, I don't get leg locked, I'm going to be fine, now it's that little reminder in my head that, like, no, I can't take this for granted. Just because I've done well in the past at defending them doesn't mean it's going to be the same this time. So it was a very valuable and, unfortunately, a very expensive lesson that I had to have, but it is what it is. It was a good experience. Congrats to him. And also he's like someone who's in my weight class usually, so I'm sure I'll see him again, and I told him that after I told him we'll see each other down the road again, either at trials or ADCC or any of the million events that are out there these days. So there was that, and so let me know if you guys want to interject.
Speaker 3:No, no, it's great man, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that hurt me because our team ended up losing that round four to three and like there were other matches, you know, obviously, but I was very upset about that because I felt like I had a very favorable match and one that, when you look at the list of like the seven head to head matchups, I'm like that's the one that I had felt like was one that we should have had. You know, it sucked with Deandre and Dante Leon. They had a super close match that I feel like could have went either way. So just little things here and there. You know, I take responsibility for us not being in the final because I felt like, when you look at it on paper, I felt like I had one of the favorable matches that we should have had. So obviously that's disappointing, but we I.
Speaker 2:Another thing I loved about the team is that we probably had about 10 or 15 minutes of like real disappointment, you know, once we lost and then, like the manager of the team and everyone just started picking each other up and we were just like, okay, guys, there's still a lot on the line for third place. You know, let's get this, let's not leave this any more money on the table, and we all got fired back up for that third place match, which at first I don't know what everyone else was thinking, I don't know how their mindsets were, but we were watching kasai versus the dagastani team and we kind of assumed we were going to face the dagastani team because kasai was stacked. But we kind of I kind of thought like, oh yeah, I know these guys are tough, but we'll, we'll run right over them. I'm sure I watched them fight kasai and they were like tooth and nail with them the entire time. And I'm starting to go like, oh my God, maybe this isn't quite as easy as I thought. You know, and you just look at those guys, you know they're fucking scary looking.
Speaker 2:You know, dude, my biggest, my biggest accomplishment of the weekend was being able to get one of them to laugh at one of my jokes. After my match with with their guy, I went up to him and I said, man, you guys are tough. I'm like, what did I say? I said I should come to Dagestan two, three years and forget. I don't know, that's the quote these days, that's the joke these days. And they all kind of laughed at that. I'm like, oh, you guys are human Because they of laughed at that. I'm like, oh, you guys are human, because they're just so stoic and serious all the time it's hard to get much out of them, um, but yeah, so anyways.
Speaker 2:Anyways, uh, my third place match, uh, with one of the guys was super tough. Those guys, those guys are like I don't know how good they are overall at jujitsu, but they got great wrestling and they are hell Like. They are incredibly hard to score on and you basically got to break them to submit them. They're not going to tap easy to stuff. So I had a super long match with the guy for third and it was a very satisfying win. I didn't know who he was he was someone completely new to me but I could just tell that he was really tough. So it was actually a very satisfying win having to grind through a super tough opponent like that.
Speaker 3:What was the prize money for first, second and third, Because I can't remember what it was.
Speaker 2:So first was $500,000 for a split between the team, and then I forget what second was. I think it was like $300,000. And then third was $150,000.
Speaker 3:Oh nice, so you still got a good amount of money. Oh yeah, as you compared, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't complain. I can't complain. You know, I think for me that was probably the biggest payday, like when it was all divided up. I think it was like different for everybody because there was like a team, A guy, May guy getting a certain amount and then if you had a certain number of wins you'll get more. So it's not split evenly, but it was good for me. I definitely appreciated it. I'm definitely hiding that money somewhere.
Speaker 1:The Dagestani guy that you fought? Was that the same guy that Fabrizio Andre fought as well?
Speaker 2:No, that was the guy that fought Pato it was a little weird. But they had a fight Because I guess I don't know exactly what happened, but I guess the guy he fake-tapped.
Speaker 1:He kind of fake-tapped.
Speaker 2:Although it wasn't like super obvious to me. I guess he did, but it wasn't overly obvious Either way. But there was a funny story to this because, uh, there, there, there wasn't so much a fight with him as there was with some of the dagestani guys on the side. Yeah, yeah, now it's really funny because the dagestani guy I forget his name and it's impossible to pronounce for me but the Dagestani guy that ended up pushing Pato I don't know if you remember seeing that part there was a guy that got up. He wasn't in a rash guard shorts, he was just in a t-shirt. He got up and pushed him. That guy was on our team. We had a Dagestani. This guy was on the Allianz team, but he's buddies with all the Russian dudes. Okay, but he's buddies with all the Russian dudes.
Speaker 1:So he was over there and we're like hey, that's all right.
Speaker 2:And all weekend, like he was the second guy for me, he was like my backup, right, and I felt this pressure because I'm like man, they might have to put him in at some point. Because all he said all weekend was like I want to smash Pato, I want to smash Pato. He said it all weekend was like I want to smash pato, I want to smash. He said it all weekend and we kind of knew like they were going to put me in against everybody. They weren't going to put him in, even though he's very good. Um, we were thinking if, if, maybe dorian was going to be in there, maybe, maybe this guy would have been a good matchup because he's he can kind of cancel out that wrestling game. But, like with anyone else, we knew it was going to be me, but I'm like, oh look, he got his chance. He didn't. He didn't really get to smash him, but he got in his face a little bit there, so he had his moment yeah, man, that's funny.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. It was wild. For a moment I thought it was, uh, yeah, gonna go off, but they managed to contain it pretty quick, so it was good. But the um, the? I was asking about the de the Andre match because did you see the submission that he did? I forget what you call it when you no, I haven't seen it. No, you're kind of on the back and you just reach and grab the leg and like put it up.
Speaker 2:I don't even want to talk about that submission. That's. That's a fuel for nightmares for me and all terrible for me. No, all terrible for me. So that was like the Sulov stretch. That's it. Yeah, that was the Sulov stretch that Fabrizio Andre got on the guy that DeAndre actually submitted, but that was what also put me out for a while. Josh Cisneros caught me in that at ADCC trials in 2022. And I tore my hamstring really badly.
Speaker 3:I was about to say yeah, I'm not surprised.
Speaker 2:I had to get surgery, so that guy was like holding out for a little bit.
Speaker 1:I know. When you said how tough they were, I thought about that instantly. I thought fuck me.
Speaker 3:That's the worst submission. That's the worst. I know exactly what you're on about. It was all work.
Speaker 2:My hamstring ripped immediately. Just shows how, like you know, my leg went right away. So I saw that and I I was watching on the TV and I was just like this, I'm like I'm not watching this. I didn't even, I didn't even see the finish, because it was uh, it was bringing back some bad memories.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was brutal, but but you know, again, from a spectator's perspective, you know it was, it was brutal, yeah, yeah, but that was a cool event, man. All right, let's talk about UFC, because obviously we had the house, we had UFC BJJ 1 and that comp and it was great to obviously see you and Keevan on there and you obviously, from what you were saying, you were on there pretty much in the run-up to IEGA as well. So you've been busy between that IEGA and now who's number one. So, yeah, tell us about that, because obviously it was, you know, I guess, a bit of a landmark event, really, wasn't it? Ufc finally getting involved with Jiu-Jitsu, um, you know, kind of running this like, uh, you know, sort of ultimate fighter style tv show, um, and you know it could see, it is what feels like the start of what could be a real, you know, sort of rocket up. A list of the last jiu-jitsu, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, tell us, I guess, how you ended up being on the show, and then talk us through the experience on the show.
Speaker 2:Man. So it came up really last minute. It was very surprising and also it just didn't feel real all the way until I got there. You know, it was really hush-hush all the way until I got there. You know, there it was really hush hush all the way through until I actually got there. And I think once I actually saw all the competitors that were actually there, I'm like, oh, this is legit, this is actually a real thing.
Speaker 2:It just it, it just, you know, obviously there wasn't too much information out there and I really felt like I even had to call the guy who was kind of you know, coordinating with me. I'm like I'm like even had to call the guy who was kind of you know coordinating with me. I'm like I'm like, tell me more, because I really don't. I feel so in the dark about all this. You know, uh, I only got like about a couple of weeks notice, you know. He's like, oh, we're, I think I forgot when we went out there.
Speaker 2:I think we went out there sometime in May and I probably learned about this in like mid April, you know. So it was a pretty quick turnaround. He's like yes, you know I took a call with him and he's like yes, send me all your information, this and that, and yeah, this is going to happen pretty fast, so let's try to get it all going quick. I'm like, ok, you know, and he was more excited than I was, because he just loves to get involved in anything, and I'm way more skeptical, you know, about things, and I probably missed some opportunities because I was overly skeptical. And then I see the event and I'm like, oh shit, I, maybe I should have done that I can imagine kivan being like, yeah, like he's lovely lad yeah, of course he was all in.
Speaker 2:He was all in, you know. Also, kivan is always he's been looking for his like moment, you know, because he's been taking more of the coach's so to have an opportunity as a competitor. Uh, I think he really he really relished that opportunity. Um, yeah, and once we got there, it was. It was an interesting experience, um and but different from the IEGA trip. I knew I was enjoying the IEGA trip as it was going on.
Speaker 2:I don't really think I fully appreciated the UFC show experience until after I got back and I was even keeping in touch with guys like Keeper Corridor. We're like, oh man, that was actually pretty cool, you know, and I don't think in the moment we really gave ourselves a chance to like be like, oh, this is, this is really like a cool thing, because it was so kind of foreign to us that I think I was just kind of thrown off by everything. You know, it's kind of like a lot of running around just to wait, you know, for all these different interviews and all this like kind of reality show things that they had to do. A lot of stuff was a lot of stuff was staged, uh, which maybe was like a bit of a turnoff in the moment, but when you think about it after, it's like how many opportunities you're gonna have to do something like that. I wish I kind of just like kind of appreciated the moment a little bit better and that's what made the kazakhstan trip even better. But I was kind of like you, I'm just gonna go with this, I'm not gonna overthink this too much. Um, but yeah, that it was.
Speaker 2:It was long story short. It was. Uh, it was a cool experience, you know, meeting Dana White, uh, kind of seeing how the business is run, kind of seeing a lot of the complex and stuff like that. Um, it was, it was pretty pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, it was definitely like a cool thing for you to have done. It's, you know, potentially going to be part of history. You know, jiu-jitsu history, I mean obviously the, the first ultimate fighter for mma was, you know it, was it made? It made it really, didn't it? You know, I mean, and we didn't have maybe that forrest griffin, stephen bonner fight and you're gonna, you're gonna be hard to find that in jiu-jitsu, but it could be, uh, yeah, the start of of you know many, many to to come. So it was cool to see people on there. And then the actual, like you said, it was a lot of. It was staged like you're obviously living in a house together, and that was always part of, like the story arc for the original army of fighter shows as well. I mean, was, were you, were you guys actually in that house and, if so, like how long were you in there for and what was that like, living with all the different competitors?
Speaker 2:yes, so to be honest, like we didn't even stay in the house, right? Okay, that's amazing. We were in a hotel the whole time that makes me so sad we, we stayed in a hotel.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I was thinking about it and they told us we were staying in a hotel and I'm like great, I don't really want to stay living with people for x period, x amount of time. But then I even thought about about it and I was like jujitsu, guys are so chill and we all pretty much know each other that even if we did stay in the house, I don't think it would have been any different than what you saw on the show. Yeah, I guess, like it was, really there wasn't much to it. I don't, I don't think you really would have gotten much out of it.
Speaker 2:The only thing I I wish is that they allowed the teams to interact more, to kind of and kind of, let us show we we wanted to do shit. You know, we wanted to kind of have that. Uh, uh, you know, not not pranking, what's the word, but just uh, banter, a little bit of banter. Yeah, exactly we wanted that and we were trying to find ways. Like you know how, in the ultimate fighter you always saw like quentin jackson, like kicking down a door yeah, exactly we were even trying out the doors and we're like, wait, these are, these are, these are real doors.
Speaker 2:They're not made of cardboard or anything like that, so we can't we can't kick them down or anything. It was uh, maybe hopefully in future seasons. I mean, of course you want it to be real, but I felt like I felt like they made us look very tame, which we are. But you know, give us a little bit. I would have liked a little bit more of a chance for us to have a little bit of spice added and added in there at some point. You know like a lot of people were roasting kivan and stuff like that. It's like, put more of that out. There.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of stuff were roasting Keevan and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:It's like put more of that out there there was a lot of stuff like that.
Speaker 2:We were shit-talking him the whole time. I was shit-talking him. He's like what, gianni, you're supposed to be my guy? And as that banter was going on at some point, so I'm like, put that in there, let's see more of that. But it was still all good though. Um, so maybe just have the episodes longer, something like that, because I feel like there was a lot more dialogue that could have been added in. But uh, still, overall, you know, I think it was great exposure for the sport yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:I noticed that actually, the episodes were very short, weren't they? And sometimes longer than others as well, which was random.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I thought that, yeah, I was listening to them, watching them. I was it's a bit random. They did a good job. I enjoyed watching the episodes. Yeah, I just wish it was a little less cheesy me personally and a bit more reality. That's the only thing I would have said. I agree with you, just general chatting shit. I would have put you all in the house and just made you sleep, deprived or something. Wake up and then you would have been fighting each other, mate.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, that's what I would have done.
Speaker 3:I would have made your lives hell if I was in charge, but they were pretty nice to you, like putting your own hotels on out.
Speaker 2:We had it pretty good. The only thing that was bothering some guys was sometimes the schedule was kind of weird. So I don't know, there's sometimes where we had all day and yet somehow guys are doing interviews at like 11 pm and I was like, why are we, why are we doing this? Now, I don't know. I'm sure, I'm sure they had a reason for everything, but I just felt like at some points the schedule was a little wacky, so sometimes that bothered guys. Yeah, there was definitely a few people that were kind of like, uh, fuck this, fuck that, you know, and I was pretty much like I'm like, okay, it is, I, it is what it is, I'm just gonna take it for what it is.
Speaker 2:Um, but you know, that was, that was pretty much it overall, like I say I, think, uh, once I was off the show I was like, oh man, you know, I didn't have my phone for like seven or eight days. I was kind of like I was kind of living in a bubble. I'm like that was actually kind of nice. You know, I wasn't stressed. I wasn't yeah, I wasn't stressed about having to contact anyone. I was, uh, sleeping super well because I wasn't checking my phone. Um, I had to live in like the 90s, like you know. I would go on the sports channel and I'm a big baseball, yankee fan and I'd have to look at like the bottom line, to like look at what the score was in the game, because I couldn't just simply look it up. I had to, like, you know what do you call the line on the bottom? Like a news update on the bottom? I don't know what you guys like to call it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, lower third animation or something, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had to look at that and seem like I had to wait like five minutes sometimes to find what the score was and I'm like, oh, this is like what it was back in the day.
Speaker 1:Mate, I'm old enough that I remember Teletext, if you ever had that.
Speaker 3:So that's how old, I was, I was very young, but I remember, I know what you mean. Yeah, man, it's madness.
Speaker 1:And remind me whose team were you on again. Who was your coach?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was on the Brazilians' team, Harrison's team.
Speaker 1:Okay, and how did you find that? Did you have much kind of like coaching interaction with him?
Speaker 2:I had none. I was definitely jealous after the show watching Mikey. You know be able to coach everyone and I mean no disrespect to Harrison, but I think he was put in a pretty tough spot because he could barely speak the language.
Speaker 3:I find that peculiar.
Speaker 2:Well, it was funny because we heard going into the show, me and Kevon were hearing all these rumors of who were going to be the coaches. And you know I love Mikey. Mikey and I actually go way back. But sometimes like he talks a lot and I'm like man, I don't know if I can handle this for a whole week. So I didn't know who the other coach was. I'm like man, maybe I want this guy, you know. And then you know he'll be a little less like in your face, like Mikey can be sometimes, as much as I love him, of course.
Speaker 2:But then when I saw so Mikey came in as the first coach and he was evaluating all of us and it was really cool and train with him a little bit and stuff like that. And then when harrison came in, I was like, oh shit, this kid doesn't speak english. I was like I saw. I was like, oh, please, mikey, pick me. You know, not not directly like that. Um, so yeah, I ended up getting picked by harrison, and Keevan always tells me this he's like Gianni. The look on your face when you got picked made you look like you were being held hostage, you know, I guess my face wasn't hiding my disappointment, you know, but honestly, we ended up having a stacked team. It was like me, keith Krikorian, josh Cisneros, andrew Tackett, andy Varela, a couple other really tough guys as well, so we had a really good group, but unfortunately, there just wasn't, like we didn't have the ability not that they didn't want to, but we didn't really have the ability to be guided by anyone, just because there was the language barrier barrier which made it super difficult.
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, bizarre, I find it absolutely bizarre like they've done that, you know, I mean yeah, I feel like they missed a trick there. Yeah yeah, like just a bit like a big personality in that role would have been really good. Yeah, especially for people who are non-jiu-jitsu people like just looking at the sport they got, you know. I mean Like it would be like they got Mikey yapping everyone's head off and then they got some Brazilian guy they don't kind of understand and he can barely talk it. Just it's just complete opposites.
Speaker 2:Like obviously I believe there's a talent discrepancy, but like I feel like they should have had Gio Gio Martinez in there. Um, have, they have history that I think that mikey's good at squashing beef for the most part, but you know, I still think that they kind of don't get along. That would have made for some great entertainment, in my opinion and they would have actually not liked each other.
Speaker 3:Maybe, you know, I mean, and then of course, yeah, and then they would have wanted to win there would have been a little bit more heat, like no one really cared what team won.
Speaker 2:There wasn't really much like competition between the teams. It was kind of it was what it was like. I think it ended up being even anyway like one guy from each weight class was from uh, one from each winner was like a mikey or harrison guy, but really there was no like real keeping score of that stuff. You know, which I'm sure would, I'm sure would have been the case if there was a little bit more animosity between the coaches yeah, I think I.
Speaker 1:I've heard lots of rumors about the ufc obviously trying to get in gordon, trying to get in craig and some of these bigger names, but weren't able to do so and then some of that was because of these contract issues apparently. I mean, you're obviously are eager very shortly afterwards, so I'm guessing you weren't kind of tied in necessarily. But you know what's, what's the situation there with you. Now obviously you're on who's number one as well. Are you still on under contract with the UFC? And if you are, is it exclusive or what's the crack with that?
Speaker 2:yeah, so you're only getting an exclusive contract if you won the whole thing. I see, okay. So me going in like when I was thinking like, oh, I'd love to, obviously if you're going to do something, you want to win um. But I was thinking like, oh, I'd love to, obviously if you're going to do something, you want to win Um. But I was also getting like people telling me like, oh, you know, because I I do like the idea to some extent. In some ways, if you think of it, I do like the idea of stability and kind of knowing where you are. You know, I this year has been amazing. I've been able to go to so many different. I've been able to go to so many different countries compete in all these different events. I've had a great experience being well-rounded everywhere. I've literally almost been everywhere this year so far, and it's still only July the issue, so I can't. But I also like the idea of kind of knowing that you're going to have some type of income that you know is going to happen.
Speaker 2:You know, at some point now the only problem is what people would tell me. Um is like, I think so I think for the winner of the show you get a four fight exclusive contract and it's like this amount for each fight and I'm like that sounds great, right. But also, at the same time, I don't think that there was a year there, I don't think it was like a year contract or a year and a half contract. I think it was like four fights for however long it takes.
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 2:And then the issue with that is like oh you know well, maybe four fights in one year, that's, that's good, you know, but maybe four fights in two, two and a half years and you're not able to do anything else. That's where maybe the problem lies. So I do get that side of it as well. Um, so it just it kind of depends on how you feel. I do also notice, and it kind of sucks, when you look at that 77 kilo division like um, I think craig, craig jones just pointed it out a couple times it's like mika valvao is with flow, andrew tackett is with ufc, um, who's the other? Ufc Rotolo is with one and Joseph Chen is kind of like a free agent and there's other guys, you know, kind of floating around but you kind of those exclusive contracts kind of kill the best matches that you can find so.
Speaker 2:I understand both sides in some way. So, yeah, that's all I got to say about that, I guess.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I think if are they going to do it same sort of thing, is that actual ufc? Are they going to do like weight classes, divisions, I think so in like a league and see, once it's like that though that's like a different thing again, in that you know, in two or three years, when they've got all the weight divisions and you know you've got your top 10, 15 guys of each, you know all the weight divisions and you've got your top 10, 15 guys of each, all the top guys will eventually filter into the UFC. That's the truth of it. They're not going to not have that opportunity.
Speaker 3:And then again, when you're saying that they've got four fight contracts, they're going to be fighting fairly regularly, especially in jiu-jitsu. It's not even like MMA, is it? They can fight all the fucking time. Really, you know what I mean. So you know that's when it's going to be exciting. It's not now, it's in like 18 months, two years, when they've got, you know when they got, like world champions, you know, for each weight class and people are going up and down weights and it's all the same sort of thing, and you can create that hype. You know that's when it'll be really. So I understand that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and once it gets to that point, I think that's when it'll be exciting. I don't see anyone competing with them. Once they do that in jiu-jitsu, I just don't see it. I don't see, especially for the top guys, there'll be nothing more appealing, in my opinion, than that. It'll be cool to do events still, but, like you said, having a set salary or a set amount of fights every so often, like you said, having a set salary or a set amount of fights every so often, most jiu-jitsu pros are poor mate. So any of the top guys are going to take out with both hands.
Speaker 2:I do understand, because I also. It's just the idea of being able to not have to hustle at least as much when it comes to finding matches or finding events. I always kind of bug the guy out who's number one to get me on a card or messaging, kind of putting my name out there to compete at one and all these different things. At least you wouldn't have the struggle of having to do that.
Speaker 3:You could be a professional.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you could be a professional and kind of just be in one thing and when you're called upon, like yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 3:It'd be cool if they allowed you to do like an event though as well, like you have your contract, but you can still maybe go do CGI, or you could do ADCC, because that's, like you know, just a one-off.
Speaker 2:We'll see how that goes. That would be good If it took you out of everything completely, especially like ADC excuse me out of ADC or CJI. That'd be kind of disappointing for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what did you make of the octoball?
Speaker 2:I thought it was cool. You know, I thought it was very cool At first when I felt like it was kind of more canvas-y, I think, kind of like what you see in the UFC, like a regular cage, but honestly it felt great. You know, I thought it was a good surface. I like the format, you know, where there's no resets, you know the ref doesn't have to get involved. Especially when you see guys who are like wrestling, you always see them going out of bounds every 10 seconds and it's impossible to reset them properly, you know. So there's basically, you know the ref doesn't have to get involved, which is cool, except for just stopping a match when there's a submission or whatever it may be, or if someone's doing something illegal. So it's, it's, uh, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Um, I, I, I. It was the first time I ever got to kind of be in a pit or a bowl of any kind, uh, so I thought that was like a cool experience and uh, yeah, I kind of I I see jiu-jitsu trending more in that direction in all kinds of events. So, yeah, I just thought it was a new, cool, innovative way. It was kind of like a skateboard ramp. It wasn't so much the pit like an angle.
Speaker 2:It was kind of like a curve, which was kind of cool. I thought it was awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there was the one match where, um, I think it was maybe tackett, where, um he kind of ran up it and almost it looked like he was going to go over the top yeah, well, there was one where the, where the ref, uh, he probably jumped the gun a little early.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think he got scared, thinking that they were going to go right out where it was like no, we weren't going anywhere. It's fine, because he actually had like a nice guillotine in place when they stopped it. Uh, I think that was. I think that was like the one time, and, including cji there was like no resets either.
Speaker 2:So yeah you know there's. There's still a little bit of a learning curve for the referees. I'm sure as well he had to remember like oh yeah, I don't have to reset them right, it's gonna be okay how boring is it when it just calls the reset.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's my pet peeve of watching jiu-jitsu, like that's why I'm so excited for CGI. Like no resets, you can live in the moment. Like no referee interference, just straight up grappling, so good.
Speaker 2:And the flat mats. They can be as huge as you want the guys out of bounds almost every time. You know that's just the way it is and also like that's how it used to. That's how it is, and like ibgf, because guys will game the system as soon as they're in a little bit of danger.
Speaker 2:They're wrong they're right by the other bounds and roll out of bounds. My god, I've lost this. I lost so many guys because of that shit. You know so I, I know it so well. Um, so it's cool that there's not that aspect anymore. I would love to fight those kind of guys in a bowl, because through that they would, they would want to get those advantages and then roll out of bounds as soon as they're in danger and then, oh, reset back on the feet yeah, yeah, I think it's going to make, I think it's going to make watching sort of just open, that type jujitsu events quite difficult after some time when we've seen more UFC, when we've seen more CJI.
Speaker 1:I think then going back to the open mats and then the stoppages is going to find it's going to make it difficult to spectate and, I think, frustrating to compete, I'd imagine, as well.
Speaker 2:I agree, yeah, I think it's already. It's probably already trending in that direction. You know, I remember, um, we went to the. We got the competitors who wanted to stick around a little bit longer. We got to go watch the fight pass a couple days later with adele and uh fion, and I remember when we saw the layout, we're like, oh man, it was kind of like a little bit of like a letdown after seeing that bowl just a few days prior and no one was supposed to know at that point. So we were like not saying anything but just but just seeing the match. It was like, oh, it was kind like, oh, you know, it was still a good event, but when you see resets and stuff like that and the match they had there really weren't that big, you know, so that made it difficult to keep things in balance, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, well, I prefer the pits. So hopefully that is the trend and that's what we see in the future. So, yeah, we'll see, man, let's chat about your uh, your training a little bit, mate, because obviously you've been around a very long time. I think I heard it might have even been owen himself like talking about the fact that you've pretty much been training since he's been alive. So you know a very, a very long time and you obviously have won, you know, a number of sort of accolades and historically were, I think, with marcello and a gi guy I think, known for your drilling as well back in the day. And here you are, sort of you know 2025, primarily no gi now training ecological dynamics and strange that approach with Kivan at Bodega. So, yeah, tell us how that kind of you know sort of how that journey's kind of happened, how you've gone from you know where you started and then kind of transitioning across to this way of training.
Speaker 2:So funny story. Keevan has been manifesting this relationship for years now. I was recently at his apartment and I've been hanging out with him more now and I saw that he has a college degree from this school in Jersey, montclair State University right, a college degree from this school in Jersey, montclair State University, right. And I look at it. And I went to that school as well and I pointed out to him and I'm like man, look at that, you went to Montclair, I went to Montclair too. And he's like Gianni, I approached you like eight times on campus. You don't remember any of that. And I'm like, no, I don't remember that at all. And I'm like, no, I don't remember that at all.
Speaker 2:I was probably just like I was so in my own zone that I was just not a people person when I was in school, I don't know. So he was kind of like a friend that I kind of you know, I think. When I was younger it took me a while to accept people into my inner circle. I kind of kept my doors very closed and Keevan has been such an awesome person with me. He's kind of helped me be able to open my doors to other people and be more accepting of other people. Of course I have no problems with anyone, but I'm just very I keep to my. I used to keep to myself a lot more than I am now.
Speaker 2:But anyways, we always trained together. He would come to Marcelo's, I would be in Jersey, he taught at a gym at Pure MMA in Denville, new Jersey, and we kind of just always saw each other in different places and stuff like that and we just kept a good acquaintance, friendship type relationship and he was training with me in Jersey City when I was with the Meow Brothers, and then he was opening his own gym, bodega Jiu Jitsu, and I was kind of just figuring my own thing out. I was trying to open a gym on my own and I had I wasn't doing a very good job at it, um, and also I still had the fire to compete. So I'm kind of like I'm kind of torn because I want to open a gym, but I also still have that desire to be a competitor as well. And so while I'm still kind of looking for this gym, I start training at Keevon's a little bit. I'm still training other places and stuff like that. I'm kind of being a bit of a nomad.
Speaker 2:But then I just noticed that like I really appreciated his coaching, I really appreciated his advice and help and I started gravitating towards him more, we started getting more good competition results. I think he coached me at a match out in Austin at main character and I submitted Jordan Hawley and he's a really good leg locker and I was going in there with a busted up foot and I think that was kind of like a moment for us where we're like ah, we got this kind of coach competitor thing clicking here, uh, and we're like let's, let's fucking do this, let's really hone in on this. And from there and that was about a little over a year ago it went from more than just like kind of casually training together to more of like a focused, you know, coach competitor room. You know to where? Now I'm there basically a bodega every day room. You know to where? Now I'm there basically a bodega every day, monday through Saturday, almost most weeks of I'm not traveling.
Speaker 2:Um, and yeah, we've kind of got a really good focus in our practices. And as much as I love Marcelo Garcia and I loved my time at Henzo's when I was a kid it's been great with Keevan because I've been able to get you know, he's been able to help me and kind of give me the attention I needed, more than anyone has ever given me, and it's also due to circumstance. He's got a small gym Marcelo's, when I was there, already had a big gym with a lot of big names. So it's cool to kind of be in a small place where, of course, he's focusing on his students. But when it comes to high-level competitors, no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Get you in the end.
Speaker 2:He's got you now, he's he stalked me into a friendship even another way he's in your cupboard now.
Speaker 3:Mate, keep on come out even another one.
Speaker 2:I remember one time we used to go to the same church and uh, kind of like, um, there was in manhattan and the pastor, like, told everyone to like, turn to your friend, turn to the person next to you and tell them how much you appreciate them. And I, I was only. I wasn't there with him, I just he just happened to be there sitting next to me and I.
Speaker 1:I had a friend with me there as well.
Speaker 2:And he no, no, it was a bunch of like jujitsu people that kind of came together, but I didn't know he was going to be there as well. And he turns to me. He's like you know, love you, bro. And I'm like, yeah, thanks. Yeah, this was my unaccepting days.
Speaker 1:It's much better now, uh, but but yeah, he definitely manifested this yeah, man, that's cool, but obviously he's got a very different style of training to probably what you're used to. I, I, I mentioned that we, we met him briefly, uh, um b team uh, when we uh we were just passing so we arrived as he was leaving, but we, we shared, we shared the mat for a session and it was. It was funny because we'd already had the conversation about his style of training and I think beamer was there and I think, interestingly, owen jones was there and they were delivering some, some technique on a, on a, like a leg entanglement, like an inversion he was probably hating on it he looked at us today, all of his eyes the whole time
Speaker 1:probably so. So I'm there watching, trying to like like I'm not an inversion guy, so I'm there watching, trying to figure this out, and I'm like they sort of did the technique we broke out to to rep it out. And uh, I'm kind of sat there looking a bit confused, still kind of looking over, and kivan just came into my eyes, shot and just went you get that, boys. I was like no mate, you got all that. You got all that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was, it was a funny moment, man, but but yeah, obviously he's got a very different style of training, um, and and that was kind of why not not entirely why we had him on the podcast, but we, we wanted to speak to him for a while because he's he's a funny guy and and we enjoyed his social media, but we just had greg saldas on and then kivan come on and we just end up having a conversation around ecological dynamics and constraints, that approach, and he was able to kind of explain in slightly simpler terms kind of what it is. But but yeah, I mean, how did, how did you find that? And how do you find that now, compared to, obviously, what you've been used to for for many years of your career?
Speaker 2:well one. I'm glad that you've had both of them on so that I don't really have to explain it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you're good.
Speaker 2:I'm even simpler. I know that I enjoy practices CLA, eco style and I have seen the benefits and I'm like I enjoy them. I see them working. That's good enough for me. That's all I need to know.
Speaker 3:That's what I like to hear. That's the answer I like to hear.
Speaker 2:I enjoy running practices that way. Now you know everything about it I enjoy. But anyways, yeah, of course you know. If you guys know my career, like I was a huge drill guy. I used to drill all the time. I talked about it on Flow recently a little bit Like I used to drill three hours a day sometimes.
Speaker 3:Whoa.
Speaker 2:Because I was in college and sometimes I would miss practices so I'd make up for the time by drilling more when I could on my own. You know I was a psychopath about it and I'm not going to come here and completely bash it because I was able to succeed a lot with it, you know. But as you get older like I spent a lot of time on the mat, maybe you don't want to have to spend all that time. You know, three hours just drilling and then add on training to that as well, um, you know. So anyways, going back a step, I remember kivan introduced it to me because he was a big fan and so and supported and followed greg sounders as well, and he's like man, let's, let's try to do a few practices like this. And this is before we really had the coach competitor thing. It was more just like meeting eye to eye and just training together, you know. And I was like, okay, cool, let's try it, you run it, you show how it goes, and just him running some of the games in some situations that I really wasn't as comfortable with or as good at, and just putting myself in those spots and realizing, oh wow, I'm learning a lot just by trying and failing in these games constantly, rather than having to see a linear technique to help me get better. Um, I, I, it probably took me like about a week or two and I was like I was, uh, I was pretty much on board with it. I'm like, all right, let's do it. And also, at the same time, like it's I, I feel like it's super efficient use of your time. So I always refer to this like evening practices at Bodega are usually like an hour, 15 minutes, like 75 minutes, and almost all of those practices, unless they're very, very, very beginner practices, you're going to get about 60 minutes of live work and I love that because that means there's only 15 minutes of really listening or talking. You know there's not very much downtime. You're constantly working on something. There's constant movement, you know. So you get the guys that come from their nine to five jobs and I always remember seeing people like at seven o'clock at night listening to a technique and they're kind of going like this. They're like they're. You know they're starting to doze off in the middle of that. There's. There's no opportunity to do that.
Speaker 2:When it's an eco practice and I appreciate that you know everyone's got to be on their toes the whole time, and even people who are day one. You know, I'm always. I'm always so curious, I'm like you know I'll be in the room and then the day one person will show up and keep on and eco and how it's run. There's ways to make it applicable for both the day one guy and for myself. Of course you can scale it in different ways. You can add more constraints for the newer that they are and take off the constraints for the more experienced they are. But overall I think it makes it great for a diverse room as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is interesting room as well. Yeah, no, it is interesting, and I I like the point about how time efficient it is, because this is certainly a, you know, a challenge that I've got, because I, you know, I'm not a full time athlete, you know, I'm not even a full-time podcaster. I've got lots of other things going on, so my time on the mat is limited and if I can optimize that time as much as possible, it makes perfect sense. Um, the question I always I'm always curious about, though, because you, you, obviously you were fortunate enough to be in a city with some amazing coaches who obviously work with marcello who's who's, you know, definitely one of the goats you mentioned. You were at hensel's as a kid as well, so you did have like amazing instruction from some incredible sort of coaches. Do you think if you just done like ecological training and hadn't had that, that input from those experts, do you think you'd still be like where you are now in regard to your skill set?
Speaker 2:this is really hard to say. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I know I know we're speculating yeah, uh, maybe better, you know, I don't know, but I I think you need a bit of a mix Like I do wish that I found ego earlier on with the ability to get input from guys. You know, I don't think I ever learned as much from Marcel or any of these guys through technique per se. I feel like I. I feel like I learned more from them through troubleshooting stuff. After a training session. If there was a mistake in training, I felt like those were and we went over it afterwards. I feel like that's when I learned the most from these guys.
Speaker 2:So same thing could be applied to eco. It would be obviously more focused on a certain spot. So if we were doing situationals all the time, uh, there would be more opportunity for for my coaches to see the mistakes that I was making and for them to point it out. It's kind of hard probably to find like weaknesses of mine through drilling a technique, because there's no resistance on an opponent, right, yeah. So, yeah, maybe I'm doing the technique right, but it doesn't mean I'm going to be doing it right in a live situation. You know, there's obviously different variables that come up, you know. So I just think of it like that Like if I, maybe if I had that input in those in those games or in those more situational rounds back in the day, who knows, maybe I could have been. I think I would have been the same level, but maybe it would have been a faster development.
Speaker 2:You know, so it's hard to say, it's impossible to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course.
Speaker 1:That's just kind of how I feel, yeah, and how about your comp prep? So you know, I don't know how you typically train and I know Jiu-Jitsu by its nature is very sporadic with competition. But obviously you know, if you're just maybe out of competition and you're looking to develop skill and work on things, and how you train and approach, approach training might be different to when you're I don't know, six weeks out from a comp. Like, thinking back historically when you weren't training this way, was there a particular way that you like I don't know optimal training or increased intensity to prepare for a comp, and is that the same or different? Now you're training this way?
Speaker 2:So, honestly, it doesn't matter whether it was eco style or more drilling and technique style, my approach to competition was always the same. Whatever the amount of volume I was doing at each phase like now or back, then always stayed the same, whether there was a competition coming up or not. You know, um, so what I mean is like I never really upped the intensity. I I've always kind of prided myself on staying consistent throughout the entire year, but like going through phases where, like, say, a competition is not coming up, more of like an experimental phase, you know, maybe I'll like these days I'll kind of like tell you you know, I don't even have to tell kiva, but he'll know it's like kind of like an off season so we could do different games around things that maybe aren't quite as my, quite as much my strengths right now. Obviously we've been doing games based on like more of where I can see from my opponent or what my strengths are, you know.
Speaker 2:And same thing goes back in the day too, like I would drill the same amount as I would, you know, before a competition or after a competition. Nothing would change, but maybe I would just have different focuses. You know, obviously, outside of a competition, I'd be working on different things, I'd be drilling new things. A competition was coming up, I'd be, you know, drilling the things that I'm best at. So really, I never changed the volume. I, I guarantee you like, after we come back from miami, I'm probably going to be back in the gym monday morning. It's just, it's just so ingrained in me that it's impossible for me to really stay away.
Speaker 1:Um, you know so the routine always stays the same, but like, just, maybe the mental focus or like the mindset in those sessions changes yeah, now it makes sense, man, and and the actual like competition day that when you, when you're at the the venue and you're about to sort of step on the mats, do you have any sort of like warm-up rituals or anything that you kind of go through to prepare yourself?
Speaker 2:I mean, I I like to go through nowadays what I like to go through a few games, you know, kind of real basic light stuff, uh, but I always try to tell people this because I think it is important. Um, I never try to be so set on a routine before I compete, because sometimes there's like circumstances like maybe the venue is not laid out the way you expected there's. You know, sometimes you go to the used to go to these ibgf competitions and there's no warm-up mats. You don't really see that as much anymore now, but sometimes you're not in the most ideal situation when it comes to warming up or getting yourself prepared. I remember I competed I had like 60-something matches in 2018.
Speaker 2:And I remember my big takeaway from that was that I'm going to compete as often as possible so that I never have to get so set on a routine for a competition, so that I don't stress out when I don't have exactly what I'm used to, right.
Speaker 2:So I mean, I'm sure who's number one? They're going to have giant warmup mats and it'll be, and my partners will be there, so it'll be pretty easy for me to do exactly what I want. But I always do tell, like competitors, like try not to be so set on having one routine before you go out there to compete. Try to be open-minded, like if you don't, if you're not able to drill or do whatever you like to do, you know, bring a jump rope with you. You know, bring some bands with you just so you can at least keep your body warm, doing some basic calisthenics, stuff like that. Sometimes you know Keevan's competing too, so he's not able to. He's not able to help me warm up, so I have to do, you know, solo stuff which looks silly, but you know, as long as you, as long as I stay, you know, warm enough, that's really all I need at the end of the day. So I try to always tell people to be adjustable in those situations.
Speaker 1:No, it does make sense. I think we we've spoken to somebody about this before and they said that yeah, if you attach yourself to you know sort of certain behaviors that are out of your control, when it kind of goes upside down, it just becomes very stressful and adds to the actual stress of the competition itself. So that makes sense. And then thinking back to your kind of success over the years I mean you know you've talked a little bit about like the kind of almost borderline, psychopathic approach to like drilling and your work ethic and everything else but what do you think like has been the key to like the success you've had? Is it is it is it that work ethic? Is it the mindset? What would you say?
Speaker 2:Um, I definitely would say work ethic, because I don't think I've ever been like the most talented guy. I don't, I never will be Um, but I've just always. You know, I've always stuck with it. You know, I've never gotten too high on myself. When I've succeeded, even when I've succeeded, I've always tried to see where I could be better and especially when you lose two, I've always kind of looked at where I could be better.
Speaker 2:Something that I take note of now is I remember watching the World Championships. When I was younger and my dad pointed this out to me. We used to go every year together. I would compete in juvenile divisions blue, purple, brown and we would watch the Black Belts and I think he made a point where you would see some of the same guys, as talented as they were, they would lose to the same guys every year in almost the same way. It'd be the same matches, year in almost the same way. It'd be the same matches.
Speaker 2:And I'm like why is that? And I think, once you get to a certain level and you're like, and you have your game, you're so unwilling to adjust what you do because you're comfortable with what you already know. It gets you to a certain point and you just assume that like, oh yeah, that's eventually going to get me over the edge, where that that's not necessarily the case. You always need to be adjustable, you always need to be able to evolve your game, and I think that was a big thing for me switching over to Eco. I was kind of getting similar results, kind of up and down, and I was like, all right, I need to change something up. And I will say first of all, for anyone who sees this I know the competition results have been up and down so far in 2025.
Speaker 2:But I will say that I really have seen a growth in my game that I know is kind of still in there. It's coming out now. Let's just say it now, it's coming out now. But that's the reason why I've been able to be around for so long, because, whether it was changing even my drilling approach back, marcello's or now switching over to eco like I have, I've never just been so set in one way of training. Uh, I've, I've always tried to keep an open mind and never just assume that my way is the best way, you know, and uh, because some people get stubborn that way and then they don't grow and they kind of you know, they kind of you know, uh, flatline you know, after a while, and I, I think I've been able to stick around because I'm like you, what I, I know, what I don't know, you know, and I'm always trying to you know, see, see what else is out there yeah, yeah, that's awesome man.
Speaker 1:And and then just to finish up, obviously we've got uh cgi2 coming up at the end of august and obviously greg is in there as the coach of the america's team. Obviously deandre's got that spot, um, but we've obviously seen a couple of people sadly get hurt and pull out. Is there? Has there been any conversations to to potentially be back up for that event if anything were to happen to DeAndre?
Speaker 2:Not too much, no. So actually I think DeAndre is going to do 77 kilos oh is he. And his brother is going to do 66.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So when I heard, that I was like, ah, when I was in Kazakhstan. Deandre is a big guy now. I don't know if he can make 66 kilos anymore. He might be done with that weight class and I'm like thank goodness, because training with him he feels like a brick. Competing with him too, he always felt super solid. So if he goes to 77, that's a blessing for us 66ers. His brother is obviously super tough too, but when I heard that deandre was doing 77, I'm like, oh, greg's the coach, deandre's at 77. I already kind of assumed gavin was going to be at 66. Um, you know, things can change in the next month and I'm always available, but uh, so far, so far nothing yeah, okay, cool.
Speaker 1:And is there anything else on the horizon other than who's number one? Obviously this weekend? Anything else coming up that you want to chat about real quick before we go.
Speaker 2:You know, to be honest, what's coming up. Hopefully a little bit of downtime.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, you said that last time though. Huh, yeah, like I said, last time.
Speaker 2:Who knows, I could be totally wrong, but so far this year I competed in thailand at one, and then there was the hundred thousand dollar tournament for sapatero, and then, not too long after that, was the ufc show, and then there was aiga, and now there's who's number one, you know so, and I, and also I did a few small things in between as well, so I've been staying fairly active and on nothing easy, you know, absolutely a gauntlet, you know. So I think in August I wouldn't mind, like just a, a carefree month of training and then, uh, probably start ramping it up because for for ADCC trials in the in the fall out here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you think you're going to be sticking to a no-gi moving forward I think so.
Speaker 2:I, you, I know I used to be such a guy and, uh, even when I was winning in nogi I think, my first nogi world title, I think when I won kasai back in the day um, I still considered myself a guy, uh, but I just started enjoying nogi more after a while. I remember covid happened and I was on my own training and at that point you were able to choose any kind of. I was able to kind of manipulate my own training the way I wanted. I wasn't at marcelo's anymore and I just spent a whole month training nogi just to get ready for a particular event. And when I got back to training the gi, I'm like, oh, I just felt, I just felt so held down.
Speaker 2:You know, compared to the scrambles and the transitions that I was finding at Nokia, I'm like man, I'm just not enjoying this the way I used to. So that kind of sucks, because I did always enjoy the G. It kind of makes me sad when I watch G competitions that I fell out of love with it. I never rule it out, though you never know, there's still plenty of time but competition-wise probably not. I see the meta changing so much in the geek that I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to go into a geek competition, half-assed and like, not at my best yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 1:Well, good luck with uh this weekend and obviously I hope you do get a break, mate, and look forward to seeing you compete again in the future. But I appreciate your time today, mate. It's been good to meet you and then have a chat.
Speaker 2:I appreciate you guys having me on and uh nice to meet you guys as well.
Speaker 1:Was there any shouts or anything you wanted to do like sponsors or teammates or anything?
Speaker 2:Um, I'll keep it simple Bodega Jiu Jitsu and Maplewood, new Jersey, and my sponsor is uh Phoenix.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Appreciate it, man.
